From VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu  Fri Nov  6 13:57:39 2009
From: VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu (Volokh, Eugene)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:57:39 -0800
Subject: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA
Message-ID: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180D@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>

Any thoughts on this story?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/mark-of-the-beast/

Thanks in advance,
Mike Pechar
Interested-Participant
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From VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu  Fri Nov  6 13:58:44 2009
From: VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu (Volokh, Eugene)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 13:58:44 -0800
Subject: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA
In-Reply-To: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB55A6791F@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
References: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB55A6791F@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
Message-ID: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180E@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>

            Whoops, hit enter too quickly; meant to delete the signature of the person who sent it to me, and include an excerpt from the article.  So, correcting it:

Any thoughts on this story?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/mark-of-the-beast/


A 22-year veteran kindergarten teacher in the Texas Bible Belt could lose her job for refusing, on religious grounds, to give fingerprints under a state law requiring them.

The evangelical Christian, Pam McLaurin, is fighting a looming suspension, claiming that fingerprinting amounts to the "Mark of the Beast<http://www.markbeast.com/>," and hence is a violation of her First Amendment right to practice her religion<http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/11/mclaurincase.pdf>. Her case is similar to a lawsuit by a group of Michigan farmers<http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/09/farmers-decryin/>, some of them Amish, challenging rules requiring the tagging of livestock with RFID chips, saying the devices are also the devil's mark.
          Eugene
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From paul.finkelman at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  6 14:08:42 2009
From: paul.finkelman at yahoo.com (Paul Finkelman)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:08:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA
In-Reply-To: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180E@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
References: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB55A6791F@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
	<E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180E@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
Message-ID: <165910.8008.qm@web59713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Does she think her "own" fingerprints are the mark of the beast?  I guess I don't get this one; I can understand the claim that "tagging" is the mark of something (however much I think they are wrong) but I cannot understand how your own fingertips can be the mark of he beast, unless you think you yourself are the beast.

 ----
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, NY  12208


518-445-3386 (p)
518-445-3363 (f)


paul.finkelman at albanylaw.edu


www.paulfinkelman.com




________________________________
From: "Volokh, Eugene" <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 4:58:44 PM
Subject: RE: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA

 
            Whoops, hit enter too quickly; meant to delete the
signature of the person who sent it to me, and include an excerpt from the
article.  So, correcting it:  
 
Any
thoughts on this story?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/mark-of-the-beast/


A 22-year veteran kindergarten teacher in the Texas Bible Belt could lose
her job for refusing, on religious grounds, to give fingerprints under a state
law requiring them.
The evangelical Christian, Pam McLaurin, is fighting a looming
suspension, claiming that fingerprinting amounts to the ?Mark of the Beast,? and hence is a violation
of her First Amendment right to practice her religion. Her case is similar
to a lawsuit
by a group of Michigan farmers, some of them Amish, challenging rules
requiring the tagging of livestock with RFID chips, saying the devices are also
the devil?s mark.
          Eugene


      
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From Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu  Fri Nov  6 14:34:02 2009
From: Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu (Scarberry, Mark)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:34:02 -0800
Subject: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA
References: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB55A6791F@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl><E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180E@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
	<165910.8008.qm@web59713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <EB2EFEBE8E9C774CA4C4832B2C6CE1570220D7CB@lime.pepperdine.ad.pepperdine.edu>

I don't think this has anything to do with any mark of the beast, but Paul you are taking the story in Revelations too literally. One way to understand the story (not mine) is that the future tyrant will have a way of identifying everyone and then of making sure that those who do not support him are cut off from being able to work or to obtain the necessities of life. Fingerprints can serve those purposes to the extent they can allow quick ID; note use of fingerprint locks on some laptop computers now. And to the extent that cooperation with the ID scheme is seen by some people as buying in to the future tyrant's plan, allowing yourself to be fingerprinted amounts to collaboration with that future tyrant, and thus is seen in a way as consenting to take the mark of the beast. Or something like that...
 
Religious claims do not have to be logical.
 
That doesn't mean a public school teacher should be allowed to refuse to give her fingerprints; I'd want to hear more about the purposes of the fingerprinting and whether some substitute form of ID would be as useful (though I doubt it would be, because the whole point of any ID system is probably to prevent criminals from assuming new identities and any scheme that would frustrate such attempts probably also would require the teacher to violate her religious views).
 
Mark Scarberry
Pepperdine

________________________________

From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu on behalf of Paul Finkelman
Sent: Fri 11/6/2009 10:08 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA


Does she think her "own" fingerprints are the mark of the beast?  I guess I don't get this one; I can understand the claim that "tagging" is the mark of something (however much I think they are wrong) but I cannot understand how your own fingertips can be the mark of he beast, unless you think you yourself are the beast.

 
----
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, NY 12208


518-445-3386 (p)
518-445-3363 (f)


paul.finkelman at albanylaw.edu


www.paulfinkelman.com <http://www.paulfinkelman.com/>  


________________________________

From: "Volokh, Eugene" <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 4:58:44 PM
Subject: RE: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA



            Whoops, hit enter too quickly; meant to delete the signature of the person who sent it to me, and include an excerpt from the article.  So, correcting it:  

 

Any thoughts on this story?


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/mark-of-the-beast/



A 22-year veteran kindergarten teacher in the Texas Bible Belt could lose her job for refusing, on religious grounds, to give fingerprints under a state law requiring them.

The evangelical Christian, Pam McLaurin, is fighting a looming suspension, claiming that fingerprinting amounts to the "Mark of the Beast <http://www.markbeast.com/> ," and hence is a violation of her First Amendment right to practice her religion <http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/11/mclaurincase.pdf> . Her case is similar to a lawsuit by a group of Michigan farmers <http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/09/farmers-decryin/> , some of them Amish, challenging rules requiring the tagging of livestock with RFID chips, saying the devices are also the devil's mark.

          Eugene


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From paul.finkelman at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  6 14:47:45 2009
From: paul.finkelman at yahoo.com (Paul Finkelman)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:47:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA
In-Reply-To: <B1BB89AB6A190A42BEF4D8366BFB75CD19DE109F6E@Harris.albanylaw.edu>
References: <E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB55A6791F@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl><E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965ABB5583180E@UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
	<165910.8008.qm@web59713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<B1BB89AB6A190A42BEF4D8366BFB75CD19DE109F6E@Harris.albanylaw.edu>
Message-ID: <52122.31820.qm@web59708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

thanks that helps and makes sense.  It strikes me giving fingerprints is a perfectly reasonable way of prevented convicted criminals from working the in the public schools. you can fake an id; you can make a diploma up; but  you cannot fake the fingerprints

 ----
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, NY  12208


518-445-3386 (p)
518-445-3363 (f)


paul.finkelman at albanylaw.edu


www.paulfinkelman.com




________________________________
From: "Scarberry, Mark" <Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu>
To: "paul.finkelman at yahoo.com" <PAUL.FINKELMAN at YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 5:36:32 PM
Subject: RE: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA

I don't think this has anything to do with any mark of the beast, but Paul you are taking the story in Revelations too literally. One way to understand the story (not mine) is that the future tyrant will have a way of identifying everyone and then of making sure that those who do not support him are cut off from being able to work or to obtain the necessities of life. Fingerprints can serve those purposes to the extent they can allow quick ID; note use of fingerprint locks on some laptop computers now. And to the extent that cooperation with the ID scheme is seen by some people as buying in to the future tyrant's plan, allowing yourself to be fingerprinted amounts to collaboration with that future tyrant, and thus is seen in a way as consenting to take the mark of the beast. Or something like that...

Religious claims do not have to be logical.

That doesn't mean a public school teacher should be allowed to refuse to give her fingerprints; I'd want to hear more about the purposes of the fingerprinting and whether some substitute form of ID would be as useful (though I doubt it would be, because the whole point of any ID system is probably to prevent criminals from assuming new identities and any scheme that would frustrate such attempts probably also would require the teacher to violate her religious views).

Mark Scarberry
Pepperdine

  _____

From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu on behalf of Paul Finkelman
Sent: Fri 11/6/2009 10:08 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA


Does she think her "own" fingerprints are the mark of the beast?  I guess I don't get this one; I can understand the claim that "tagging" is the mark of something (however much I think they are wrong) but I cannot understand how your own fingertips can be the mark of he beast, unless you think you yourself are the beast.


----
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, NY 12208


518-445-3386 (p)
518-445-3363 (f)


paul.finkelman at albanylaw.edu


www.paulfinkelman.com<http://www.paulfinkelman.com/>


  _____

From: "Volokh, Eugene" <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 4:58:44 PM
Subject: RE: Religious objection to teaching fingerprinting, under Texas RFRA



            Whoops, hit enter too quickly; meant to delete the signature of the person who sent it to me, and include an excerpt from the article.  So, correcting it:



Any thoughts on this story?


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/mark-of-the-beast/



A 22-year veteran kindergarten teacher in the Texas Bible Belt could lose her job for refusing, on religious grounds, to give fingerprints under a state law requiring them.

The evangelical Christian, Pam McLaurin, is fighting a looming suspension, claiming that fingerprinting amounts to the "Mark of the Beast<http://www.markbeast.com/>," and hence is a violation of her First Amendment right to practice her religion<http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/11/mclaurincase.pdf>. Her case is similar to a lawsuit by a group of Michigan farmers<http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/09/farmers-decryin/>, some of them Amish, challenging rules requiring the tagging of livestock with RFID chips, saying the devices are also the devil's mark.

          Eugene


      
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From jlsatty at wwisp.com  Wed Nov 11 02:28:20 2009
From: jlsatty at wwisp.com (Joel Sogol)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:28:20 -0600
Subject: Religious Bias Claim Proceeds Against Pryor Cashman
Message-ID: <000501ca62b9$b0f97250$12ec56f0$@com>

 <http://alm-editorial-us.msgfocus.com/c/1hS54prQurKAjEJjU> Religious Bias
Claim Proceeds Against Pryor Cashman
New York Law Journal

A discrimination action brought against Pryor Cashman by a technology expert
who is an Orthodox Jew will proceed, following denial of the firm's motion
to dismiss. The judge's decision turned on whether an interpretation of New
York City's Human Rights Law in a recent sexual discrimination action
applied in the present case. The plaintiff, who was terminated in 2007,
alleges that he was discouraged from observing his religion and that the
firm's managing partner referred to him as a "Jewboy" on at least one
occasion.

 

Joel L. Sogol

Attorney at Law

811 21st Avenue

Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35401

ph (205) 345-0966

fx  (205) 345-0971

 <mailto:jlsatty at wwisp.com> jlsatty at wwisp.com

 

Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight -- which is why we have
evidence rules in U.S. courts.

 

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From paul.finkelman at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 11 07:30:49 2009
From: paul.finkelman at yahoo.com (Paul Finkelman)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:30:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Religious Bias Claim Proceeds Against Pryor Cashman
In-Reply-To: <B1BB89AB6A190A42BEF4D8366BFB75CD19E3F3C217@Harris.albanylaw.edu>
References: <B1BB89AB6A190A42BEF4D8366BFB75CD19E3F3C217@Harris.albanylaw.edu>
Message-ID: <590961.85746.qm@web59708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

>From a very close friend who worked there:

"Fascinating... I'd not heard anything about this before.

I was actually quite friendly with the plaintiff.  He
was in our IT department... a techie, not a lawyer... and had a great
deal of trouble getting to work on time.  He and I discussed it a few
times.  FWIW, I don't think religion had anything at all to do with his
firing."
 ----
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New Scotland Avenue
Albany, NY  12208


518-445-3386 (p)
518-445-3363 (f)


paul.finkelman at albanylaw.edu


www.paulfinkelman.com




________________________________
From: Joel Sogol <jlsatty at wwisp.com>
To: "paul.finkelman at yahoo.com" <PAUL.FINKELMAN at YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 5:29:59 AM
Subject: Religious Bias Claim Proceeds Against Pryor Cashman

Religious Bias Claim Proceeds Against Pryor Cashman<http://alm-editorial-us.msgfocus.com/c/1hS54prQurKAjEJjU>
New York Law Journal

A discrimination action brought against Pryor Cashman by a technology expert who is an Orthodox Jew will proceed, following denial of the firm's motion to dismiss. The judge's decision turned on whether an interpretation of New York City's Human Rights Law in a recent sexual discrimination action applied in the present case. The plaintiff, who was terminated in 2007, alleges that he was discouraged from observing his religion and that the firm's managing partner referred to him as a "Jewboy" on at least one occasion.

Joel L. Sogol
Attorney at Law
811 21st Avenue
Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35401
ph (205) 345-0966
fx  (205) 345-0971
jlsatty at wwisp.com<mailto:jlsatty at wwisp.com>

Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight -- which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts.


      
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From jlsatty at wwisp.com  Sat Nov 21 01:46:13 2009
From: jlsatty at wwisp.com (Joel Sogol)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:46:13 -0600
Subject: Associated Baptist Press - ACLU sues Tenn. school district for
	repeatedly promoting religion
Message-ID: <004801ca6a8f$7701e180$6505a480$@com>

http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4583&Itemid
=53