Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com

Wed Jul 23 13:07:21 PDT 2008

I guess parents and churches are either not doing their jobs or are just not
enough

Perhaps we should removal all children from their homes (since they are
obviously not getting the moral training they need) and lock them in schools
that have bible classes.  Surely that will stem the tide.

Joel L. Sogol

Attorney at Law

811 21st Ave.

Tuscaloosa, ALabama  35401

ph (205) 345-0966

fx (205) 345-0971

email:  jlsatty at wwisp.com

Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight - which is why we have
evidence rules in U.S. courts.

  _____  

From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Gordon James
Klingenschmitt
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:12 PM
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com

1) Brayton seems to be confusing "myth" with "statistical correlated fact,"
that when we stopped teaching Biblical morality, children stopped behaving
according to Biblical morality.  Nobody here disputes violent crime,
divorce, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, and single-parenthood have increased
since 1960.  If nobody here cares (as Ed supposes) about the social
consequences of radical interpretations, we truly have become a cold,
calloused, nation of selfish lawyers indeed.

2) Brayton's view that Bibles should be banned from schools remains on the
"atheist fringe" of constitutional legal scholars, including the U.S.
Supreme Court has held that public schools may teach students about the
Bible as long as such teaching is "presented objectively as part of a
secular program of education."  (6School District of Abington Twp v.
Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963). See Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42
(1980) (per curiam)).

3) This permissive view Supreme Court view is endorsed by both liberal and
conservative legal scholars, in Charles' excellent document "The Bible and
Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide"
(http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261) including:  
American Association of School Administrators
American Federation of Teachers
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development
Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs
Christian Educators Association International
Christian Legal Society
Council on Islamic Education
National Association of Evangelicals
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A.
National Council for the Social Studies
National Education Association
National School Boards Association
People for the American Way Foundation
Union of American Hebrew Congregations

4)  When Brayton places himself far left of People for the American Way, you
can tell he's on the fringe, and I'm in the mainstream.  But at least he's
"highly educated," unlike the rest of these organizations, who seem to agree
with me.

In Jesus,
Chaplain K.,

Ed Brayton <stcynic at gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state atheism and
Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by taking Bibles and
prayer OUT of public schools, that...

"the result has already been very ugly and very expensive."  

In Jesus name,
Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt

Charles Haynes <CHaynes at freedomforum.org> wrote:

I agree that much more guidance is needed (along the lines suggested in the
consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 -- "The Bible and Public Schools: A
First Amendment Guide"
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me,
however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for
training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas "Bible Bill." Perhaps
that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the the board's
decision this week.
If the training requirements mandated by the bill are followed, then many of
the problems might be avoided... But with groups out there pushing
unconstitutional Bible materials (such as those at issue in the
recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be difficult to monitor what is
going on across the state. Charles Haynes

21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The commissioner 

shall develop and make available training materials and other 

teacher training resources for a school district to use in 

assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in developing:

(1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course 

curriculum;

(2) understanding of applicable supreme court rulings 

and current constitutional law regarding how Bible courses are to 

be taught in public schools objectively as a part of a secular 

program of education;

(3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an 

objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages 

religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view;

(4) proficiency in instructional approaches that 

present course material in a manner that respects all faiths and 

religious traditions, while favoring none; and

(5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content or 

proselytizing in the classroom.

(b) The commissioner shall develop materials and resources 

under this section in consultation with appropriate faculty members 

at institutions of higher education.

(c) The commissioner shall make the training materials and 

other teacher training resources required under Subsection (a) 

available to Bible course teachers through access to in-service 

training.

(d) The commissioner shall use funds appropriated for the 

purpose to administer this section.

Charles Haynes
The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center
555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001
202/292-6293 - office

703/683-1924 home office

________________________________

From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu on behalf of Ed Brayton
Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com

Having seen some of the material already at use in many Bible courses in
Texas, I can only say that the State board of education is being incredibly
irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what can and can't be taught in
such classes. Local school districts are inevitably going to teach this
course in constitutionally dubious ways without such guidance. Terri Leo
claims that providing such guidelines might lead to a lawsuit; not providing
them is going to lead to many such suits - and sooner rather than later.
They are doing the same thing the Louisiana legislature is doing with the
recent "academic freedom" legislation, inviting local schools into a "Dover
trap." The result is going to be very ugly and very expensive.

Ed Brayton

-----Original Message-----
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G.
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com

Justice Brennan's well-known statement, concurring in Schempp, 374 US at
300: "teaching about the Bible" "in classes in literature or history" is
permissible. As literature, surely teaching about the Bible is different
from other literature items, distinctively involving the necessity of
treating these issues:

The fact that some people believe it (or some of it) is "the word of God" --
others believe that it is essential to understanding their religion --
others believe it is interesting literature but otherwise irrelevant -- and
thinking internationally, it is one several books presenting similar issues,
e.g., the Koran.

Arguably, if teachers are not so advised/trained, there are indeed critical
church-state issues.

Dan
Daniel G. Gibbens
Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus
University of Oklahoma

-----Original Message-----
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Joel Sogol
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM
To: Religionlaw
Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith- msnbc.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/

Joel Sogol

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