A plea for keeping things precise (and providing citations whenever possible)
Volokh, Eugene
VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu
Tue Jul 22 14:09:21 PDT 2008
Folks: Just a quick plug from the list custodian for maximum
accuracy. If you want to cite a statistic, please check it and cite the
source (plus see whether the big picture is more complex than you
describe). For instance, a quick visit to the Bureau of Justice
Statistics site
(http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Crime/State/StatebyState
.cfm) reveals that the crime rate as reported to the police rose from
160.9/100,000 in 1960 to 473.5/100,000 in 2006, a 200% increase (or a
tripling) -- bad enough, but not 560%. (I realize that not all crimes
are reported to the police, and the reporting rate changes over time,
but I don't think the NCVS data goes back to the 1960; if you have
better statistics, please let me know.)
What's more, the current violent crime rate is pretty much at the
1974 level, and there was in fact a sharp decline from 1992 to 2003 --
not, I take it, because the nation or the educational system has somehow
gotten less "atheistic." Now I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that
various forms of social pathology have increased since 1960 (while some
have declined); and it's possible, though in my view unproven, that this
has something to do with the decline of religion in public education.
But I'd like to keep discussions on the list as accurate as
possible, and a 560% increase is not the same as a 200% increase or even
a 300% level; and a 1960-now comparison doesn't make such sense if the
current numbers are at the 1974 level. So please let's check any
statistics we mention, and provide citations when possible. Many
thanks,
Eugene Volokh
________________________________
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Darrell
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:52 PM
To: chaplaingate at yahoo.com; Law & Religion issues for Law
Academics
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas schools - Faith-
msnbc.com
Yet leading cultural indicators show that since 1960 in America,
violent crime has increased by 560 percent, illegitimate birth rates
have increased more than 400 percent, teen suicide is up over 200
percent, the divorce rate has more than doubled, and the percentage of
families headed by a single parent has more than tripled.
It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce state
atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children, by
taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that...
And that's with increased Bible instruction that violates the
law. Ed Brayton is right to worry -- looks like more of the same, maybe
at an increased rate.
Why not study what it really says, study the real literature
components (as with every AP English course), the real effects on
history (as with every AP U.S. History and AP World History course)?
Tougher academics can help -- Sunday school in the public schools is, by
Chaplian Klingenschmitt's tally, a grotesque failure, doing the opposite
of what it is intended.
More seriously, pay very careful attention to Mark Chancey's
comments. He's a very distinguished, and faithful, Bible scholar. What
the Texas State School Board is working to implement is contrary to most
Christian faiths, let alone the Constitution. Incompetence, weak
academics, bad religion -- it's a bad brew. When the state board
ignores the state's leading Bible scholars, the state's teachers and
teacher organizations, and even the sponsor of the Bill, there's evil
afoot.
And when we try to increase the AP offerings, which feature
increased study of both Christianity and the Bible, these same people
complain.
Something's rotten in Texas. There's prayer in the schools, but
sadly, that's all the students have. No wonder crime, illicit sex are
up, and academic achievement is down. The kids are following the State
School Board's examples, ignoring all authority, making their own,
unanchored moral decisions, ignoring the best information, etc.
By the way, I don't think the divorce rate has doubled. I think
it's dropping, in fact. Anybody got a current statistic?
Ed Darrell
Working in Dallas to get the curriculum planned out for
2008-2009, no thanks to the State School Board
Gordon James Klingenschmitt <chaplaingate at yahoo.com> wrote:
Ed writes about teaching about the Bible (as an optional
elective) in public schools, "the result is going to be very ugly and
very expensive."
Yet leading cultural indicators show that since 1960 in
America, violent crime has increased by 560 percent, illegitimate birth
rates have increased more than 400 percent, teen suicide is up over 200
percent, the divorce rate has more than doubled, and the percentage of
families headed by a single parent has more than tripled.
It seems to me, thanks to courts and judges that enforce
state atheism and Ed's social experiment upon our families and children,
by taking Bibles and prayer OUT of public schools, that...
"the result has already been very ugly and very
expensive."
In Jesus name,
Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt
Charles Haynes <CHaynes at freedomforum.org> wrote:
I agree that much more guidance is needed (along
the lines suggested in the consensus guidelines we issued in 2000 --
"The Bible and Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide"
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?id=6261. What puzzles me,
however, is why the State Board fails to mention the requirements for
training as outlined in Section 21.549 of the Texas "Bible Bill."
Perhaps that is the next step... but there is no mention of it in the
the board's decision this week.
If the training requirements mandated by the
bill are followed, then many of the problems might be avoided... But
with groups out there pushing unconstitutional Bible materials (such as
those at issue in the recently-settled lawsuit in Odessa) it will be
difficult to monitor what is going on across the state. Charles Haynes
21.459. BIBLE COURSE TRAINING. (a) The
commissioner
shall develop and make available training
materials and other
teacher training resources for a school district
to use in
assisting teachers of elective Bible courses in
developing:
(1) expertise in the appropriate Bible course
curriculum;
(2) understanding of applicable supreme court
rulings
and current constitutional law regarding how
Bible courses are to
be taught in public schools objectively as a
part of a secular
program of education;
(3) understanding of how to present the Bible in
an
objective, academic manner that neither promotes
nor disparages
religion, nor is taught from a particular
sectarian point of view;
(4) proficiency in instructional approaches that
present course material in a manner that
respects all faiths and
religious traditions, while favoring none; and
(5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content
or
proselytizing in the classroom.
(b) The commissioner shall develop materials and
resources
under this section in consultation with
appropriate faculty members
at institutions of higher education.
(c) The commissioner shall make the training
materials and
other teacher training resources required under
Subsection (a)
available to Bible course teachers through
access to in-service
training.
(d) The commissioner shall use funds
appropriated for the
purpose to administer this section.
Charles Haynes
The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center
555 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001
202/292-6293 - office
703/683-1924 home office
________________________________
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu on
behalf of Ed Brayton
Sent: Tue 7/22/2008 1:56 AM
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas
schools - Faith- msnbc.com
Having seen some of the material already at use
in many Bible courses in
Texas, I can only say that the State board of
education is being incredibly
irresponsible in not spelling out exactly what
can and can't be taught in
such classes. Local school districts are
inevitably going to teach this
course in constitutionally dubious ways without
such guidance. Terri Leo
claims that providing such guidelines might lead
to a lawsuit; not providing
them is going to lead to many such suits - and
sooner rather than later.
They are doing the same thing the Louisiana
legislature is doing with the
recent "academic freedom" legislation, inviting
local schools into a "Dover
trap." The result is going to be very ugly and
very expensive.
Ed Brayton
-----Original Message-----
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On
Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G.
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:20 PM
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Subject: RE: Bible class rules set for Texas
schools - Faith- msnbc.com
Justice Brennan's well-known statement,
concurring in Schempp, 374 US at
300: "teaching about the Bible" "in classes in
literature or history" is
permissible. As literature, surely teaching
about the Bible is different
from other literature items, distinctively
involving the necessity of
treating these issues:
The fact that some people believe it (or some of
it) is "the word of God" --
others believe that it is essential to
understanding their religion --
others believe it is interesting literature but
otherwise irrelevant -- and
thinking internationally, it is one several
books presenting similar issues,
e.g., the Koran.
Arguably, if teachers are not so
advised/trained, there are indeed critical
church-state issues.
Dan
Daniel G. Gibbens
Regents' Professor of Law Emeritus
University of Oklahoma
-----Original Message-----
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On
Behalf Of Joel Sogol
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:41 AM
To: Religionlaw
Subject: Bible class rules set for Texas schools
- Faith- msnbc.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25742567/
Joel Sogol
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