"Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"

Fri Sep 7 04:42:15 PDT 2007

What is the etiquette on this list, please?  Would it be proper to send 
a personal email thanking Dr. Guinn for pointing out to me that I am 
unable to comprehend a believer's perspective?   Maybe it's because I 
lack a PhD  that I  failed to learn the difference between rational and 
empirical, though I am looking forward to being introduced to the works 
of Hutchens (an author with whom I am totally unfamiliar).

Are atheists convicted as evangelicals by virtue of the passion of their 
readers? 

Susan,  one year of a two year course in complementary veterinary medicine

David E. Guinn wrote:
> Three points:
>
> My citation of Paul and Calvin is not offered as a form of religious
> revelation (i.e. scripture) but simply to reflect the perspective of
> believers which you appear unable to comprehend.  As someone who is NOT a
> believer myself, I nonetheless find it helpful to try to understand the
> perspectives of people of faith.
>
> Second, there is a distinction between "rational" - which includes the
> concepts of logically consistent, and coherent through the application of
> reason to basic concepts and principles and "empirical" -- which suggests
> grounding in a materialist ideology.  You seem to equate rational with
> empirical.
>
> Third, to say atheists are not evangelical ignores the passion and furor
> around Harris, Dawkins, Hutchens et. al. and the best selling books they
> have written.
>
> David E. Guinn, JD, PhD
>  
> Recent Publications Available from SSRN at 
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=199608
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
> [mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:24 AM
> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
>
> I don't see answering whether belief is a question of choice by 
> reference to a religious belief, which is the same as referring to 
> Calvin and Paul for the answer.  And if theology grows out of the 
> belief, that doesn't mean the theology is not irrational, it means only 
> that it is logically consistent if the validity of the premise (belief) 
> is conceded.  Nor is faith more rational if one values it for touching 
> something deeper and more profound.  Deeper that what?  More profound 
> than what?  And how do we know?
>
> Atheists aren't trying to persuade anyone of anything.  Most are too 
> laid back to care what others believe, although they try to teach others 
> the difference between rational, evidence-based conclusions and beliefs 
> which are not proved.
>
> One can choose to look for proof or not, and to be guided by success in 
> finding proof.
>
> Susan 
>
>
>
> David E. Guinn wrote:
>   
>> It does seem to me that one of the most compelling arguments in favor 
>> of religious freedom is the recognition that religious belief is not 
>> simply a matter of choice--like deciding whether or not to join a 
>> fraternity or sorority.  As Calvin and Paul suggested, it is a product 
>> of grace.  That does not mean that people of faith are irrational with 
>> respect to the theology that grows out of that belief, it does mean 
>> that faith touches something much deeper and more profound.
>>  
>> That said, I think the evangelical fervor displayed by the 
>> neo-atheists (as E.J. Dionne so aptly labels them) demonstrates that 
>> this religious connection can attach to a materialist ideology as well 
>> as a transcendentalist one.  The mistake Harris and company make is in 
>> thinking that their choices are purely rational and that everyone 
>> should believe exactly as they do.  (Sounds like some religious 
>> fundamentalists to me.)
>>  
>> In this sense, I think the issue does touch significantly on religion 
>> and law.
>>  
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>     
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>>     From: RJLipkin at aol.com
>>     Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:58:10 -0400
>>     Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
>>     To: religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
>>
>>             I'd welcome an on-list discussion of this matter, with
>>     Eugene's permission of course.
>>
>>     Bobby
>>           
>>     Robert Justin Lipkin
>>     Professor of Law
>>     Widener University School of Law
>>     Delaware
>>     */
>>     /**/Ratio Juris/*, Contributor:  http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/*/*/
>>     Essentially Contested America/*, *Editor-In-Chief
>>     *http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org//*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
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