"Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"

[David E. Guinn]

Three points:

My citation of Paul and Calvin is not offered as a form of religious
revelation (i.e. scripture) but simply to reflect the perspective of
believers which you appear unable to comprehend.  As someone who is NOT a
believer myself, I nonetheless find it helpful to try to understand the
perspectives of people of faith.

Second, there is a distinction between "rational" - which includes the
concepts of logically consistent, and coherent through the application of
reason to basic concepts and principles and "empirical" -- which suggests
grounding in a materialist ideology.  You seem to equate rational with
empirical.

Third, to say atheists are not evangelical ignores the passion and furor
around Harris, Dawkins, Hutchens et. al. and the best selling books they
have written.

David E. Guinn, JD, PhD
 
Recent Publications Available from SSRN at 
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=199608

-----Original Message-----
From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
[mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:24 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"

I don't see answering whether belief is a question of choice by 
reference to a religious belief, which is the same as referring to 
Calvin and Paul for the answer.  And if theology grows out of the 
belief, that doesn't mean the theology is not irrational, it means only 
that it is logically consistent if the validity of the premise (belief) 
is conceded.  Nor is faith more rational if one values it for touching 
something deeper and more profound.  Deeper that what?  More profound 
than what?  And how do we know?

Atheists aren't trying to persuade anyone of anything.  Most are too 
laid back to care what others believe, although they try to teach others 
the difference between rational, evidence-based conclusions and beliefs 
which are not proved.

One can choose to look for proof or not, and to be guided by success in 
finding proof.

Susan 



David E. Guinn wrote:
> It does seem to me that one of the most compelling arguments in favor 
> of religious freedom is the recognition that religious belief is not 
> simply a matter of choice--like deciding whether or not to join a 
> fraternity or sorority.  As Calvin and Paul suggested, it is a product 
> of grace.  That does not mean that people of faith are irrational with 
> respect to the theology that grows out of that belief, it does mean 
> that faith touches something much deeper and more profound.
>  
> That said, I think the evangelical fervor displayed by the 
> neo-atheists (as E.J. Dionne so aptly labels them) demonstrates that 
> this religious connection can attach to a materialist ideology as well 
> as a transcendentalist one.  The mistake Harris and company make is in 
> thinking that their choices are purely rational and that everyone 
> should believe exactly as they do.  (Sounds like some religious 
> fundamentalists to me.)
>  
> In this sense, I think the issue does touch significantly on religion 
> and law.
>  
> David
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     From: RJLipkin at aol.com
>     Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:58:10 -0400
>     Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
>     To: religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
>
>             I'd welcome an on-list discussion of this matter, with
>     Eugene's permission of course.
>
>     Bobby
>           
>     Robert Justin Lipkin
>     Professor of Law
>     Widener University School of Law
>     Delaware
>     */
>     /**/Ratio Juris/*, Contributor:  http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/*/*/
>     Essentially Contested America/*, *Editor-In-Chief
>     *http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org//*
>
>
>
>
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