OK, folks, have it your way
Greg Magarian
Magarian at law.villanova.edu
Tue Sep 6 15:39:32 PDT 2005
I can only speak for myself, but I don't think I advocated open season,
and I certainly didn't express any desire to "explain all [I] want about
how Christianity, Protestantism, Republicanism, or anything else is bad
for the country." You took the not unprecedented, but still unusual
step of ruling a particular line of argument out of order; I offered one
explanation of how that line of argument seemed appropriate, in the
particular and narrow context of the present discussion. I agree with
you that we shouldn't devolve into random assaults on belief systems,
and I also agree that we shouldn't use principled discussions as
vehicles for sneaking in ad hominem attacks through the back door. I
take it you thought Paul Finkelman was doing the latter, and I
respectfully disagree. I'm sorry you view my disagreement as so
patently unreasonable that it, along with the other comments here, can't
be taken as anything other than a call to open season.
Greg.
Gregory P. Magarian
Professor of Law
Villanova University School of Law
299 N. Spring Mill Road
Villanova, PA 19085
(610) 519-7652
>>> VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu 9/6/2005 5:42:59 PM >>>
Rick, Jim, others: Please feel entirely free to post all you
want on why it is that religion is really good for the country, why
Christianity has advanced the cause of civilization, why atheist
countries have undermined civil liberties, and the like. Being from
the
USSR, I'd especially like to hear discussions of Soviet atrocities,
given that the Soviet Union has been one of the few aggressively
atheistic (and not just separationist) countries in history. Good
accounts of the great achievements of Christian political leaders in
the
U.S. and elsewhere are great, too.
Paul, Greg, others: By all means, explain all you want about
how Christianity, Protestantism, Republicanism, or anything else is
bad
for the country.
After all, everything is connected to everything else; let's
let
it all hang out. Plus that means that I'll have to spend a lot less
time moderate things, since there'll be no moderation to be done. I'm
sure we'll have lots of fun criticial discourse.
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
> [mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Greg
Magarian
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 2:20 PM
> To: Volokh, Eugene; religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> Subject: RE: From the list custodian
>
>
> A discussion about how a public educational system may /
> should evaluate religious' schools' treatments of religious
> topics fairly opens up substantive debate about what
> constitutes a sufficiently critical treatment of religious
> topics. Paul Finkelman's post dramatized the ample space
> available for critical discourse about the dominant religion
> in American life, in the face of arguments that a public
> educational system discriminates if it refuses to credit
> uncritical courses about religion. As one reader (a
> Christian one, if that's a requirement for standing in this
> dispute), I think Professor Finkelman's statment is more
> probative than prejudicial.
>
> Speaking as one reader (a Christian one, for whatever
> that's worth), I'm not sure a discussion of how a public
> educational system should address sectarian schools'
> treatments of religious topics can avoid arguments about
> whether one kind of system or the other portrays a given
> religion or religions too critically or not critically enough.
>
> Gregory P. Magarian
> Professor of Law
> Villanova University School of Law
> 299 N. Spring Mill Road
> Villanova, PA 19085
> (610) 519-7652
>
> >>> VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu 9/6/2005 4:50:20 PM >>>
> Well, all I saw was what the post said. The post
> listed bad things that Christianity is responsible for; it
> seemed pretty clearly like a slam at Christianity. It
> strikes me as very likely that many people would have
> interpreted it this way. I would have thought that the
> author would have understood that it would be interpreted
> this way. I don't see the upside to turning this list into a
> forum for "here's what's wrong with your religion -- no,
> here's what's wrong with your religion," and I see lots of downside.
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
> > [mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Paul
> > Finkelman
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:44 PM
> > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> > Subject: Re: From the list custodian
> >
> >
> > Eugene:
> >
> > My point was a serious one about how one organizes a course, and
> > reminder that when people teach a course to argue for a
> > viewpoint and to
> > ignore other information it undermines academic integrity.
> > The fact is
> > this: a "History of the Influence of Christianity in
> > American history"
> > taught in a fundamentalist Christian school would not likely
> > teach many
> > of the topics I suggested; most American history coursres
> > would teach a
> > number of them, as well as teach about Puritans, the two great
> > awakenings, the role of religious people in the antislavery
> > movement and
> > the civil rights movement.
> >
> > If Rick wants to play the list game, I think it only fair to
> > explore the
> > issue.
> >
> > Paul Finkelman
> >
> > Volokh, Eugene wrote:
> > > Folks: I'm sure that people on this list would be able
> > to compile
> > > lists of the great sins of atheists and atheistic regimes;
> > of Muslims;
> > > of Jews; of Catholics; of Protestants; and more. They
> > would also be
> > > able to compile lists of the good things that each of those
> > groups have
> > > done. Whether religion (or irreligion) generally, or certain
> > > denominations in particular, are on balance malign or
> > benign influences
> > > on the nation is a topic that has been debated for
> > centuries, and has
> > > filled volumes. It can easily fill days and days of list
> > discussion,
> > > too, should people choose to embark on it.
> > >
> > > But do we really think that posting such lists -- no
> matter how
>
> > > much
> > > the post may entertain the author -- will be helpful to
> thoughtful,
>
> > > reasoned list discussion of the law of government and religion?
> > >
> > > The list custodian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul Finkelman <paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rick:
> > >
> > > I would assume that UC has equivalent courses such
> > as "History of
> > > Christianity"; "Renaissance/Reformation" and a
> > number of early
> > > modern
> > > European courses and late antiquity courses that deal
> almost
> > > entirely
> > > with the Church and Church history. There are
> > probably courses
> > > on the
> > > Bible taught in various departments at UC as they
> > are in most
> > > universities. Moreover, the history of religion
> > pops up all over
> > > the
> > > place. When I used to teach US Survery in a history
> > department I
> > > always
> > > spent at least a week on the Puritans and assigned
> > a book about
> > > them.
> > > My discussion of 19th century reform movements
> > included a good
> > > deal on
> > > the 2nd great awakening; I always had a lecture on
> > the 1st great
> > > awkening in a survey course. Every colonial history
course
> I
> > > ever took
> > > (or knew of) had a huge section on religion. In
anything,
> > > colonialists
> > > probably spend too much time on the Puritans.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, I would imagine that a great number of
> > the courses
> > > below
> > > would have content about Christians and
> > Christianity, including
> > > "Storytelling," "Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in
> > Literature,"
> > > (lots
> > > of interesting religious issues there, from the
> > problem of guilt to
> > > fundamentalist hombophobia) "Jewish History," (had
> > to teach it
> > > without
> > > discussing Christianity); Turning Points in Jewish
> > History (same
> > > comment); Issues in African History (from
> > Missionaries to Bishop
> > > Tutu it
> > > will show up); Holocaust Literature, Islam, etc.
> > will all have to
> > > discuss Christianity and its relationship to other
> > faiths and
> > > events.
> > >
> > > I think a course on the "Influence of Christianity
> > in the US"
> > > would be
> > > interesting and certainly valid. Such a course
> > would lectures and
> > > readings on the following (in no particular order):
> > >
> > > The KKK (and the use of the Cross as a symbol of
> > terrorism and
> > > hatred;
> > > Christian "identity" movements in the last 25 years
> > > Father Coughlin's antisemitism
> > > The hanging of witches in Salem and Quakers in Boston
> > > The use of Christian theology to defend (as well as
> > attack) slavery
> > > The use of conversion of slaves to help prevent
> > resistance to
> > > slavery
> > > Ownership of slaves by churches
> > > The utter failure of the Protestant Churches in the
> > South to the
> > > take a
> > > strong stand in favor of legalizing slave marriages
> > > The persecution of Mormons and the murder of Joseph
Smith
> > > The death penalty (fortunately reduced to exile)
> > for a Jew in
> > > colonial
> > > Maryland because he denied the divinity of Christ
> > > The whipping and jailing of Baptist ministers in
> > Virginia in the
> > > Revolutionary period.
> > > The intellectual intolerance of the 1920s (and more
recent
> > > periods) by
> > > prohibiting the teaching of evolution in the public
> schools
> > > The forced reading of Protestant version of the
> > Bible imposed on
> > > Catholics in the 19th century
> > > The a! ttacks on Al Smith's presidential campaign (and
> also
> > > attack on John
> > > F. Kennedy) because they were Catholic.
> > > The strong stand against integration taken by virtually
> ever
> > > southern
> > > Christian minister in the 1950s and early 1960s.
> > > The influence of religious groups in undermining
> > Indian culture and
> > > religion and forcing Indian children not to learn their
> own
> > > language.
> > > The use of Protestant theology (and the influence
> > of Christian
> > > leaders)
> > > to justify wars against Indians, particularly in
> > the colonial
> > > period.
> > >
> > > Yes, it would be a great course; I would love to teach
it.
> > >
> > > Paul Finkelman
> > > --
> > > Paul Finkelman
> > > Chapman Distinguished Professor
> > > University of Tulsa College of Law
> > > 3120 East 4th Place
> > > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
> > >
> > > 918-631-3706 (office)
> > > 918-631-2194 (fax)
> > >
> > > paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan wrote:
> > > > If you haven't read the complaint
> > > >
> > > > in the Association of Christian Schools v. UC case, I
> > > encourage you to
> > > > do so. Although UC denied approval to courses
> concerning
> > > > "Christianity's Influence on American History" and
> > > "Christianity and
> > > > Morality in American Literature" as being too
> > narrow and not
> > > consistent
> > > > "with knowledge generally accepted in the collegiate
> > > community," at the
> > > > same time it approved courses such as these:
> > > >
> > > > Social Commentary in Popular Music
> > > > Baseball, Literature and Culture
> > > > Sports Fiction/Non Fiction
> > > > Storytelling
> > > > The Roots of Rock Music ("yeah, yeah, yeah")
> > > > Gender Roles in Literature
> > > > Ethnic Experience in Literature
> > > > Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in Literature
> > > > Literature of the Counterculture
> > > > Literature from the 60's Movement
> > > > Filipino Heritage Studies
> > > > Intro to Rabbinic Literature
> > > > Jewish History
> > > > Turning Poi! nts in Jewish History
> > > > Issues in African History
> > > > Raza Studies
> > > > History of India
> > > > Mexican History
> > > > Modern Irish History
> > > > Asian Literature
> > > > Holocaust Literature
> > > > Chicano Literature
> > > > Beat Literature (like, cool, man!)
> > > > Women's Literature
> > > > Intro to Buddhism
> > > > Islam
> > > >
> > > > And the beat goes on. There were many similar
> > courses that were
> > > > also approved.
> > > >
> > > > Now these facts are from the complaint. UC may
> > reply that it
> > > has not
> > > > approved Beat Literature or Baseball Literature
> > or the other
> > > > narrow courses from specialized points of view.
> > But if these
> > > are the
> > > > facts. this case looks very much like the kind
> > of religious
> > > gerrymander
> > > > we saw in Lukumi where a person could kill an animal
> for
> > > almost any
> > > > reason except religious ritual. And it also
> > looks like the
> > > kind of
> > > > subjective, individualized, discretionary procedures
> that
> > > trigger ! strict
> > > > scrutiny under Sherbert and the individualized
> > process rule.
> > > >
> > > > I have only glanced at the 108-page complaint,
> > but it sure
> > > looks to me
> > > > like the Pls have a strong claim of viewpoint
> > and religious
> > > > discrimination. Indeed, there seems to be at least a
> > > possibility of
> > > > denominational discrimination in the approval
process.
> It
> > > would not
> > > > surprise me at all if UC settles this one as quickly
> and
> > > quietly as
> > > > possible.
> > > >
> > > > Rick Duncan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick Duncan
> > > > Welpton Professor of Law
> > > > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> > > >
> > > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must
> > follow either
> > > Galahad or
> > > > Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis,
> > Grand Miracle
> > > >
> > > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
> briefed,
> > > debriefed, or
> > > > numbered." --The Prisoner
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or
> > get password,
> > > see
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> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get
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> > >
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>
> > >
> > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot
> be
> > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and
> read
> > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web
> > archives; and
> > > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
> > messages to
> > > others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan
> > > Welpton Professor of Law
> > > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> > >
> > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must follow
> > either Galahad
> > > or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand
Miracle
> > >
> > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
> > briefed, debriefed,
> > > or numbered." --The Prisoner
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> > > <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
> > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> > >
> > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> > viewed as
> > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> > messages that are
> > > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can
> > > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Finkelman
> > Chapman Distinguished Professor
> > University of Tulsa College of Law
> > 3120 East 4th Place
> > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
> >
> > 918-631-3706 (office)
> > 918-631-2194 (fax)
> >
> > paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password,
> > see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> >
> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives;
> > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
> > messages to others.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password,
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>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
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