From the list custodian
paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
Tue Sep 6 14:28:12 PDT 2005
Eugene: You obviously did not read the first two paragraphs of the post if that is all you saw!
Quoting "Volokh, Eugene" <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu>:
> Well, all I saw was what the post said. The post listed bad
> things that Christianity is responsible for; it seemed pretty
> clearly
> like a slam at Christianity. It strikes me as very likely
> that many
> people would have interpreted it this way. I would have
> thought that
> the author would have understood that it would be interpreted
> this way.
> I don't see the upside to turning this list into a forum for
> "here's
> what's wrong with your religion -- no, here's what's wrong
> with your
> religion," and I see lots of downside.
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu
> > [mailto:religionlaw-bounces at lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of
> Paul
> > Finkelman
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:44 PM
> > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> > Subject: Re: From the list custodian
> >
> >
> > Eugene:
> >
> > My point was a serious one about how one organizes a course,
> and
> > reminder that when people teach a course to argue for a
> > viewpoint and to
> > ignore other information it undermines academic integrity.
>
> > The fact is
> > this: a "History of the Influence of Christianity in
> > American history"
> > taught in a fundamentalist Christian school would not likely
>
> > teach many
> > of the topics I suggested; most American history coursres
> > would teach a
> > number of them, as well as teach about Puritans, the two
> great
> > awakenings, the role of religious people in the antislavery
>
> > movement and
> > the civil rights movement.
> >
> > If Rick wants to play the list game, I think it only fair to
>
> > explore the
> > issue.
> >
> > Paul Finkelman
> >
> > Volokh, Eugene wrote:
> > > Folks: I'm sure that people on this list would be
> able
> > to compile
> > > lists of the great sins of atheists and atheistic regimes;
>
> > of Muslims;
> > > of Jews; of Catholics; of Protestants; and more. They
> > would also be
> > > able to compile lists of the good things that each of
> those
> > groups have
> > > done. Whether religion (or irreligion) generally, or
> certain
> > > denominations in particular, are on balance malign or
> > benign influences
> > > on the nation is a topic that has been debated for
> > centuries, and has
> > > filled volumes. It can easily fill days and days of list
>
> > discussion,
> > > too, should people choose to embark on it.
> > >
> > > But do we really think that posting such lists -- no
> matter how
> > > much
> > > the post may entertain the author -- will be helpful to
> thoughtful,
> > > reasoned list discussion of the law of government and
> religion?
> > >
> > > The list custodian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul Finkelman <paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rick:
> > >
> > > I would assume that UC has equivalent courses such
>
> > as "History of
> > > Christianity"; "Renaissance/Reformation" and a
> > number of early
> > > modern
> > > European courses and late antiquity courses that
> deal almost
> > > entirely
> > > with the Church and Church history. There are
> > probably courses
> > > on the
> > > Bible taught in various departments at UC as they
>
> > are in most
> > > universities. Moreover, the history of religion
> > pops up all over
> > > the
> > > place. When I used to teach US Survery in a
> history
> > department I
> > > always
> > > spent at least a week on the Puritans and assigned
>
> > a book about
> > > them.
> > > My discussion of 19th century reform movements
> > included a good
> > > deal on
> > > the 2nd great awakening; I always had a lecture on
>
> > the 1st great
> > > awkening in a survey course. Every colonial
> history course I
> > > ever took
> > > (or knew of) had a huge section on religion. In
> anything,
> > > colonialists
> > > probably spend too much time on the Puritans.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, I would imagine that a great number
> of
> > the courses
> > > below
> > > would have content about Christians and
> > Christianity, including
> > > "Storytelling," "Gender, Sexuality, and Identity
> in
> > Literature,"
> > > (lots
> > > of interesting religious issues there, from the
> > problem of guilt to
> > > fundamentalist hombophobia) "Jewish History," (had
>
> > to teach it
> > > without
> > > discussing Christianity); Turning Points in Jewish
>
> > History (same
> > > comment); Issues in African History (from
> > Missionaries to Bishop
> > > Tutu it
> > > will show up); Holocaust Literature, Islam, etc.
> > will all have to
> > > discuss Christianity and its relationship to other
>
> > faiths and
> > > events.
> > >
> > > I think a course on the "Influence of Christianity
>
> > in the US"
> > > would be
> > > interesting and certainly valid. Such a course
> > would lectures and
> > > readings on the following (in no particular
> order):
> > >
> > > The KKK (and the use of the Cross as a symbol of
> > terrorism and
> > > hatred;
> > > Christian "identity" movements in the last 25
> years
> > > Father Coughlin's antisemitism
> > > The hanging of witches in Salem and Quakers in
> Boston
> > > The use of Christian theology to defend (as well
> as
> > attack) slavery
> > > The use of conversion of slaves to help prevent
> > resistance to
> > > slavery
> > > Ownership of slaves by churches
> > > The utter failure of the Protestant Churches in
> the
> > South to the
> > > take a
> > > strong stand in favor of legalizing slave
> marriages
> > > The persecution of Mormons and the murder of
> Joseph Smith
> > > The death penalty (fortunately reduced to exile)
> > for a Jew in
> > > colonial
> > > Maryland because he denied the divinity of Christ
> > > The whipping and jailing of Baptist ministers in
> > Virginia in the
> > > Revolutionary period.
> > > The intellectual intolerance of the 1920s (and
> more recent
> > > periods) by
> > > prohibiting the teaching of evolution in the
> public schools
> > > The forced reading of Protestant version of the
> > Bible imposed on
> > > Catholics in the 19th century
> > > The a! ttacks on Al Smith's presidential campaign
> (and also
> > > attack on John
> > > F. Kennedy) because they were Catholic.
> > > The strong stand against integration taken by
> virtually ever
> > > southern
> > > Christian minister in the 1950s and early 1960s.
> > > The influence of religious groups in undermining
> > Indian culture and
> > > religion and forcing Indian children not to learn
> their own
> > > language.
> > > The use of Protestant theology (and the influence
>
> > of Christian
> > > leaders)
> > > to justify wars against Indians, particularly in
> > the colonial
> > > period.
> > >
> > > Yes, it would be a great course; I would love to
> teach it.
> > >
> > > Paul Finkelman
> > > --
> > > Paul Finkelman
> > > Chapman Distinguished Professor
> > > University of Tulsa College of Law
> > > 3120 East 4th Place
> > > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
> > >
> > > 918-631-3706 (office)
> > > 918-631-2194 (fax)
> > >
> > > paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan wrote:
> > > > If you haven't read the complaint
> > > >
> > > > in the Association of Christian Schools v. UC
> case, I
> > > encourage you to
> > > > do so. Although UC denied approval to courses
> concerning
> > > > "Christianity's Influence on American History"
> and
> > > "Christianity and
> > > > Morality in American Literature" as being too
> > narrow and not
> > > consistent
> > > > "with knowledge generally accepted in the
> collegiate
> > > community," at the
> > > > same time it approved courses such as these:
> > > >
> > > > Social Commentary in Popular Music
> > > > Baseball, Literature and Culture
> > > > Sports Fiction/Non Fiction
> > > > Storytelling
> > > > The Roots of Rock Music ("yeah, yeah, yeah")
> > > > Gender Roles in Literature
> > > > Ethnic Experience in Literature
> > > > Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in Literature
> > > > Literature of the Counterculture
> > > > Literature from the 60's Movement
> > > > Filipino Heritage Studies
> > > > Intro to Rabbinic Literature
> > > > Jewish History
> > > > Turning Poi! nts in Jewish History
> > > > Issues in African History
> > > > Raza Studies
> > > > History of India
> > > > Mexican History
> > > > Modern Irish History
> > > > Asian Literature
> > > > Holocaust Literature
> > > > Chicano Literature
> > > > Beat Literature (like, cool, man!)
> > > > Women's Literature
> > > > Intro to Buddhism
> > > > Islam
> > > >
> > > > And the beat goes on. There were many similar
> > courses that were
> > > > also approved.
> > > >
> > > > Now these facts are from the complaint. UC may
>
> > reply that it
> > > has not
> > > > approved Beat Literature or Baseball Literature
>
> > or the other
> > > > narrow courses from specialized points of view.
>
> > But if these
> > > are the
> > > > facts. this case looks very much like the kind
>
> > of religious
> > > gerrymander
> > > > we saw in Lukumi where a person could kill an
> animal for
> > > almost any
> > > > reason except religious ritual. And it also
> > looks like the
> > > kind of
> > > > subjective, individualized, discretionary
> procedures that
> > > trigger ! strict
> > > > scrutiny under Sherbert and the individualized
>
> > process rule.
> > > >
> > > > I have only glanced at the 108-page complaint,
>
> > but it sure
> > > looks to me
> > > > like the Pls have a strong claim of viewpoint
> > and religious
> > > > discrimination. Indeed, there seems to be at
> least a
> > > possibility of
> > > > denominational discrimination in the approval
> process. It
> > > would not
> > > > surprise me at all if UC settles this one as
> quickly and
> > > quietly as
> > > > possible.
> > > >
> > > > Rick Duncan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick Duncan
> > > > Welpton Professor of Law
> > > > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> > > >
> > > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must
>
> > follow either
> > > Galahad or
> > > > Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis,
> > Grand Miracle
> > > >
> > > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
> briefed,
> > > debriefed, or
> > > > numbered." --The Prisoner
> > > >
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > To post, send message to
> Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or
> > get password,
> > > see
> > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> > > >
> > > > Please note that messages sent to this large
> > list cannot be
> > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the
> list and read
> > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web
>
> > archives; and
> > > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
>
> > messages to
> > > others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > To post, send message to
> Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get
>
> > password, see
> > >
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> > >
> > > Please note that messages sent to this large list
> cannot be
> > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the
> list and read
> > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web
>
> > archives; and
> > > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
>
> > messages to
> > > others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan
> > > Welpton Professor of Law
> > > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> > >
> > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must follow
>
> > either Galahad
> > > or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand
> Miracle
> > >
> > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
> > briefed, debriefed,
> > > or numbered." --The Prisoner
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief
> effort.
> > > <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get
> password, see
> > >
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> > >
> > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot
> be
> > viewed as
> > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> > messages that are
> > > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members
> can
> > > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Finkelman
> > Chapman Distinguished Professor
> > University of Tulsa College of Law
> > 3120 East 4th Place
> > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
> >
> > 918-631-3706 (office)
> > 918-631-2194 (fax)
> >
> > paul-finkelman at utulsa.edu
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password,
>
> > see
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> >
> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
>
> > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and
> read
> > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives;
>
> > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
> > messages to others.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> To post, send message to Religionlaw at lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password,
> see
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives;
> and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages
> to others.
>
Paul Finkelman
Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law
Univ. of Tulsa College of Law
2120 East 4th Place
Tulsa OK 74104-3189
Phone: 918-631-3706
Fax: 918-631-2194
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