Roger Williams is Celebrating Freedom Today

Mon Jun 11 17:58:32 PDT 2001

I wouldn't be the least bit offended by the suggestion. I found the
invocation of Williams' surprising to say the least.  In search of someone
we could all agree on, how about if we agree that Justice Douglas is rolling
over in his grave?

Jim "Let sleeping justices lie (or is that lay?)" Henderson
Senior Counsel
ACLJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
[mailto:RELIGIONLAW at listserv.ucla.edu]On Behalf Of Mark Graber
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:53 PM
To: RELIGIONLAW at listserv.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Roger Williams is Celebrating Freedom Today

May I suggest the dialogue below suggests that Roger Williams isn't going to
be very helpful on this precise point of public law.  As Sandy Levinson
never tires of reminding us, a crucial feature of much contemporary public
law is that it is tied up in a welfare state that was not anticipated by
17th century proto-framers, 18th century framers, and 19th century framers.
We know that Williams believed that state involvement with religion would
damage both religion and the state.  What we do not know is whether he would
have thought allowing a religion club such as Good News to meet in a public
school is state involvement with religion.  I confess to thinking it is, but
confess that Williams is not at all helpful to the argument one way or the
other.

Mark A. Graber

>>> thetruthserum at YAHOO.COM 06/11/01 02:58PM >>>
Professor Finkelman stated:

"Or bad news for the the estbalishment clause, and for those who think that
free exercise of religion is threatened when the government and the Church
are too closely linked.  Once again, Roger Williams, the founder of the
Baptists movement in America, must roll over in his grave."

We shouldn't confuse Roger Williams' spinning for simply rolling over in his
grave.  Obviously, the founder of the biblical commonwealth, who welcomed
all who were not looking to doom that commonwealth onto the decks of the
ship of state, not only baptists (societal rejects like himself), but also
Congregationalists and  papists (whose predominance inflicted religious
intolerance either directly on him (driving to Rhode Island) or on other
baptists on the continent), and mohommetans.

No, as Roger cranks up the party and delights in the fact that, for once at
least, religionists are not being tossed overboard as though they were
stowaways or traitors to the ship of state, don't confuse the spinning for a
reaction of confusion, upset or displeasure in today's outcome.

The spinning occurred two hundred years ago when Thomas Jefferson misused
Williams' metaphor (in which the wall is devised to protect the garden of
the church from the wilderness of the world) to suggest that the
Establishment Clause created a wall of DIVISION between church and state.
The spinning went into high gear a century and a half later when even Tom's
misused metaphor was transmogrified into the justification of treating the
Establishment Clause as a biased filter designed to eliminate the influence
of religion on society, culture and government and governmental
institutions.

Jim "Crank up the band, Roger Williams' has got some happy feet" Henderson
Senior Counsel
ACLJ

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