A helpful (and close) analogy as to the "natural-born citizen" question?

[Lawrence Solum]

Eugene's argument is certainly persuasive, but as I read the
materials, it appears that the actual English law differentiated
between who "was" a natural born subject and those who were given the
rights of natural born subjects.  It's a very fine distinction, but it
actually makes a VERY BIG LEGAL DIFFERENCE.  Natural born subjects
were subjects whether or not Parliament passed a statute conferring
that status, and classes of persons naturalized by statute could be
altered prospectively by Parliament.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Volokh, Eugene <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>        I appreciate Larry's point, which we always have to remember
> when analogizing from British law to U.S. law.  Nonetheless, as
> Blackstone and Wilson describe it, the actual practice was that only
> natural-born subjects could be members of Parliament or holders of other
> leading offices.  Yet if this practice coincided with the practice of
> allowing such officeholding by children of English subjects who were
> born outside England, that would strongly suggest that the common
> understanding of "natural-born subject" -- and likely "natural-born
> citizen" -- was to include such people, no?
>
>        Eugene
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lawrence Solum [mailto:lsolum at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:48 AM
>> To: Volokh, Eugene
>> Cc: conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu
>> Subject: Re: A helpful (and close) analogy as to the
>> "natural-born citizen" question?
>>
>> Eugene's inquiry is an excellent one--but there are some differences.
>> In the English context, the disabilities that flowed from
>> being a "naturalized" as opposed to "natural born" subject
>> could be removed by Parliament.  That is, Parliament could
>> naturalize a class of subjects from birth & give then the
>> rights of natural born subjects.  Congress, however, cannot
>> override the Constitution--in the English system, there was
>> not binding written constitution to be overridden.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Volokh, Eugene
>> <VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>> >        Blackstone also reports that a "naturaliz[ed]" alien
>> in England
>> > -- as opposed to one "born in the king's ligeance" -- couldn't be a
>> > member of Parliament or a holder of various offices.  James
>> Wilson's
>> > Lectures on Law, delivered in 1790 to 1791, discuss this
>> (specifically
>> > treating "a subject natural born" as the antonym of "a subject
>> > naturalized").  It seems quite likely that the limitation of the
>> > Presidency to "natural-born citizens" was understood as a vastly
>> > narrowed version of the English limitation of high
>> government office
>> > to natural-born subjects.
>> >
>> >        Did this English office-holding disability extend to English
>> > citizens' children who were born outside the King's
>> dominions, or did
>> > some such people hold office?  If they were seen as being
>> entitled to
>> > hold office, then it supports my reading of the earlier Blackstone
>> > passage, which treated them as being "natural-born subjects" (even
>> > though their status was conferred by statute).  And the
>> same, I think,
>> > would apply to the American Presidency.
>> >
>> >        Eugene
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > To post, send message to Conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu To subscribe,
>> > unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
>> > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conlawprof
>> >
>> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
>> viewed as private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
>> messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives;
>> and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
>> messages to others.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lawrence Solum
>> Associate Dean for Faculty and Research, John E. Cribbet
>> Professor of Law, & Professor of Philosophy Co-Director,
>> Institute for Law and Philosophy University of Illinois College of Law
>> 504 East Pennsylvania Avenue
>> Champaign, IL  61820-6909
>> lsolum at gmail.com or lsolum at illinois.edu
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/
>> (blog)
>> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=327316
>> (ssrn page)
>> http://home.law.uiuc.edu/~lsolum/
>> (personal home page)
>> http://www.law.uiuc.edu/faculty/DirectoryResult.asp?Name=Solum
>> ,+Lawrence
>> (homepage at the University of Illinois College of Law)
>> http://www.phil.uiuc.edu/faculty/list/Solum/index.htm
>> (homepage at the University of Illinois Department of
>> Philosophy) http://www.pbase.com/lsolum/root (photography galleries)
>>
>> Assistant: Amy Fitzgerald
>> (217) 333-9115 / amfitzge at law.uiuc.edu
>>
> _______________________________________________
> To post, send message to Conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/conlawprof
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>



-- 
Lawrence Solum
Associate Dean for Faculty and Research, John E. Cribbet Professor of
Law, & Professor of Philosophy
Co-Director, Institute for Law and Philosophy
University of Illinois College of Law
504 East Pennsylvania Avenue
Champaign, IL  61820-6909
lsolum at gmail.com or lsolum at illinois.edu

--

http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/
(blog)
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=327316
(ssrn page)
http://home.law.uiuc.edu/~lsolum/
(personal home page)
http://www.law.uiuc.edu/faculty/DirectoryResult.asp?Name=Solum,+Lawrence
(homepage at the University of Illinois College of Law)
http://www.phil.uiuc.edu/faculty/list/Solum/index.htm
(homepage at the University of Illinois Department of Philosophy)
http://www.pbase.com/lsolum/root
(photography galleries)

Assistant: Amy Fitzgerald
(217) 333-9115 / amfitzge at law.uiuc.edu