Prosecutor fired for going to "white preservationist"conference

[Barksdale, Yvette]

Which category would you put Eugene Debs, James Baldwin, etc.  in?

yb

***/////////////////////////////////////////***
 
Professor Yvette M. Barksdale
The John Marshall Law School
315 S. Plymouth Ct. 
Chicago, IL 60604
(312) 427-2737 (phone)
(312) 427-9974 (fax)
 
***/////////////////////////////////////////***

-----Original Message-----
From: isomin at gmu.edu [mailto:isomin at gmu.edu] 
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:46 PM
To: Barksdale, Yvette
Cc: Jeff Renz; conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
preservationist"conference

Actually, most longtime members of the American Communist Party (as
opposed to some who belonged only briefly or just went to a small number
of meetings) were indeed communists in the sense I have indicated.
Moreover, they also slavishly followed the doctrinal and political lead
of the Soviet Union under Stalin (which was extreme even by communist
standards). For example, they  endorsed the Gulag system, the
Nazi-Soviet Pact, Stalin's purges, and so on. See the sources cited in
my colleague David Bernstein's review essay, in the link recently posted
to to this blog. INdeed, the US Communist Party did not differ with the
Soviet government in any significant way until the late 1980s, when they
expressed fears that Gorbachev's reforms were going too far!

The distinction between Communism and noncommunist versions of socialism
and marxism was not an esoteric one and the Communists themselves
repeatedly insisted on its importance (as did many contemporary
noncommunist leftists and liberals, such as Arthur Schlesinger in his
book The Vital Center). To be sure, much of the mass public probably
didn't grasp the distinction, but they also probably didn't grasp
nuanced distinctions between different ideologies on the political right
either. In general, public opinion surveys consistently show that much
of the public has very little understanding of any ideology.


Ilya Somin
Assistant Professor of Law
George Mason University School of Law
3301 Fairfax Dr.
Arlington, VA 22201
ph: 703-993-8069
fax: 703-993-8202
e-mail: isomin at gmu.edu
Website: http://mason.gmu.edu/~isomin/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barksdale, Yvette" <7barksda at jmls.edu>
Date: Monday, March 6, 2006 9:31 pm
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
preservationist"conference

> Of course, one problem with the use of the word communist in arguments
> about rights, etc., is that although the scholarly definition may be
> narrow, the popular understanding is very broad indeed. So, if these
> arguments are made in popular discourse (Communists should be barred
> from prosecutor's office because of presumed bias), there is a 
> very high
> risk of "red-baiting"   as we saw in the McCarthy era. For 
> example, my
> understanding is that most (?) people in the American Communist party
> were persuaded by economic policy (more equitable distribution of 
> wealthetc.) rather than by any inherent hostility to the middle 
> classes -
> which would make them Marxist under your analysis. But politicians
> screaming for red blood didn't make such nice distinctions. (Of 
> course,this is not a popular list - yikes, that phrasing  didn't 
> come out right
> - smile)
> 
> yb 
> 
> ***/////////////////////////////////////////***
> 
> Professor Yvette M. Barksdale
> The John Marshall Law School
> 315 S. Plymouth Ct. 
> Chicago, IL 60604
> (312) 427-2737 (phone)
> (312) 427-9974 (fax)
> 
> ***/////////////////////////////////////////***
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isomin at gmu.edu [mailto:isomin at gmu.edu] 
> Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:22 PM
> To: Barksdale, Yvette
> Cc: Jeff Renz; conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
> preservationist"conference
> 
> My purpose was not to defend Helms (of whom I'm hardly a fan), but to
> note that, at least after the 1960s, he was more moderate than the 
> KKK.If he was just lying about his newfound moderation, that 
> doesn't affect
> my main point (some people who claim to be noncommunist Marxists might
> potentially be communists lying about their true affiliation).
> 
> Ilya Somin
> Assistant Professor of Law
> George Mason University School of Law
> 3301 Fairfax Dr.
> Arlington, VA 22201
> ph: 703-993-8069
> fax: 703-993-8202
> e-mail: isomin at gmu.edu
> Website: http://mason.gmu.edu/~isomin/
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barksdale, Yvette" <7barksda at jmls.edu>
> Date: Monday, March 6, 2006 9:06 pm
> Subject: RE: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
> preservationist"conference
> 
> > Ilya writes: 
> > 
> > "To draw parallels in the field of white supremacy, the former are
> > roughly analogous to Jesse Helms (post-Civil Rights movement, 
> when he
> > rejected antiblack violence and at least theoretically accepted the
> > equality of nonwhites under the law), while the latter are roughly
> > analogous to the KKK."
> > 
> > Hi Ilya: 
> > 
> > You had me persuaded there until your Jesse Helms analogy. From the
> > perspective of most people of color, the difference between 
> early and
> > late Jesse Helms, is the  difference between the snake you see 
> and the
> > snake you don't  see. (or put another way - overt vs. covert racism)
> > 
> > yb
> > 
> > 
> > ***/////////////////////////////////////////***
> > 
> > Professor Yvette M. Barksdale
> > The John Marshall Law School
> > 315 S. Plymouth Ct. 
> > Chicago, IL 60604
> > (312) 427-2737 (phone)
> > (312) 427-9974 (fax)
> > 
> > ***/////////////////////////////////////////***
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: isomin at gmu.edu [mailto:isomin at gmu.edu] 
> > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 7:58 PM
> > To: Barksdale, Yvette
> > Cc: Jeff Renz; conlawprof at lists.ucla.edu
> > Subject: Re: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
> > preservationist"conference
> > 
> > As I tried to explain in an earlier post, there is a distinction 
> > betweenCommunism and Marxism. The former is just one of several  
> > variants of
> > the latter. Communism arose in opposition to more moderate 
> visions of
> > Marxism, notably that of the German Social Democrats, who had 
> accepted> parliamentary democracy, endorsed freedom of speech and 
> religion,> rejected violent revolution, and were even willing to 
> countenance> limited private property rights. The Communists, led 
> by Lenin, 
> > differedwith the SPD on all these points and these differences 
> > have divided
> > communists from many other types of Marxists (as well as many
> > non-Marxist socialists) ever since.
> > 
> > I think there are some government positions from which it might be
> > legitimate to fire even noncommunist Marxists. However, the issues
> > raised by noncommunist Marxist officeholders are very different from
> > those raised by communists. To draw parallels in the field of white
> > supremacy, the former are roughly analogous to Jesse Helms (post-
> Civil> Rights movement, when he rejected antiblack violence and at 
> least> theoretically accepted the equality of nonwhites under the 
> law), while
> > the latter are roughly analogous to the KKK. 
> > 
> > Ilya Somin
> > Assistant Professor of Law
> > George Mason University School of Law
> > 3301 Fairfax Dr.
> > Arlington, VA 22201
> > ph: 703-993-8069
> > fax: 703-993-8202
> > e-mail: isomin at gmu.edu
> > Website: http://mason.gmu.edu/~isomin/
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barksdale, Yvette" <7barksda at jmls.edu>
> > Date: Monday, March 6, 2006 8:34 pm
> > Subject: RE: RE: Prosecutor fired for going to "white
> > preservationist"conference
> > 
> > > Well - perhaps this is the difference. You are defining 
> > communism as
> > > Leninist statist ideology, whereas I am defining it broadly as
> > > Marxist-based economic  ideology. 
> > > 
> > > The Leninist ideology was opposed to individual rights in 
> > general, 
> > > whichwould include opposition to the very concept of an 
> > individual 
> > > right to a
> > > fair trial, as opposed to  the state's unilateral right to 
> > decide 
> > > guiltor innocence. 
> > > 
> > > Yb
> > > 
> > > (And sorry for the cross posts - I resent my original response 
> > to the
> > > list. The listserv had rejected it because the string of attached
> > > previous posts made the size too large.)  
> > > 
> > >
> > 
>